If you break your leg, the first thing that probably doesn't cross your mind is, "Oh no, how am I going to tell someone that I broke their leg?" What are they going to think about me? It's probably more along the lines of, "Holy crap, I broke my leg, and I need to get some help as soon as possible."

People have a hard time reaching out for assistance when it comes to problems that other people can't see, despite the fact that one's mental health is just as essential as one's physical health when it comes to one's overall welfare. This aversion to discussing openly about mental health not only makes life more difficult for so many people. In point of fact, it is actively causing their deaths.

It's never been more crucial to normalize conversations about mental health. As a continuation of our guys(tal) Healthy campaign and in conjunction with Rhone, we decided to hold a roundtable discussion with four notable guys. The discussion was moderated by Drs. Drew Ramsey and Gregory Scott Brown, who are also the co-hosts of Friday Sessions and consultants for Men's Health. Joining Dr. Ramsey, Dr. Brown, and me were NBA player Jimmy Butler, addiction specialist and Bachelorette graduate Zac Clark, recording artist and Late Show with Stephen Colbert bandleader Jon Batiste, and National Geographic photographer Cory Richards. We spent the better part of an hour discussing vulnerability, pivotal moments in mental health, and different approaches to locating greater joy in one's daily life.

The Honorable Gregory Scott Brown: What encouraged you to open up about mental health?

Cory Richards: While you were gone, I was on an adventure in Tibet. Especially after I’d gone to rehab and into treatment for alcoholism, I started opening up more and more about [mental health]. But then I was in a position where I honestly felt like I didn't have someone to talk to. So I started talking to my audience. It was more of a reflex [since] I didn’t have any other resource. In some ways, I think it was a rudimentary attempt at speaking about mental health to an audience, but it ended up being more of an overshare. What it did was open that door because the feedback that came in was actually extremely favorable, even though it wasn't stated very well. I was struck with the realization all of a sudden that “Oh, this can be meaningful for people.”

Brown: Cory, as an explorer, you push the boundaries of both your body and your intellect to the farthest extent possible. How has that contributed to you gaining a better understanding of who you are as a person?

Richards: First things first, as you may have noticed, I've been blogging quite a bit about this topic recently. Consequently, a significant amount of information is being unearthed as a result of going through that process. I believe that there were occasions when the physical pursuit itself was its own form of addiction. There were occasions when it served as a form of a coping technique. On the other hand, there are times when it can be a constructive outlet for negative emotions such as anxiety, angst, or artistic expression. What fascinates me the most is the fact that it can be found in both of those locations, is that correct? When I've been going through tough circumstances in the past, I often turn to activities like photography and climbing as a form of escapism. On other occasions, however, I've given myself permission to use such activities as a form of expression. Therefore, it has been beneficial, but at times it has also been a maladaptive behavior. It is present in both of those areas.

To quote Drew Ramsey: Much obliged, Cory. Who else? We are a group of males who are being vulnerable and open during this time when mental health is receiving a lot of attention in the media. Why did you suddenly start placing a greater emphasis on your mental health?

Jimmy Butler: I don't know about being vulnerable and opening up. But I think that mental health is hella essential. If your mind's not correct, I don't think too many other things can go right for you. In my field of business, everybody expects guys to be superhuman. They are not in any pain, and they have no sensations. You simply have to ignore whatever it is and power through it. That is in no way reflective of who we are. We're human beings. We're normal people just like everybody else.

In addition, I've realized in recent times that chatting helps a great deal. Your mental health can benefit greatly from you finding ways to express who you are. It does not mean that you have a clear mind; rather, it indicates that your mind is in the proper place and that you are content with what is taking place. It is really challenging to accomplish in this day and age. On the other hand, I get the impression that we are currently living in a moment where you have time to work on improving yourself. People tend to underestimate the significance of their own self-health and wealth, which is where mental health comes into play, in my opinion. If your head isn't in the game, it doesn't matter what you're trying to accomplish since it won't go very smoothly.

Brown: As an NBA player, Jimmy, I know that your schedule is extremely unpredictable. You may find yourself in one city one day, and then another place the next day. How is it possible to maintain a sense of stability when your line of work can be so intellectually and physically taxing?

Butler: I've learned to anticipate the unexpected since I know that nothing will ever be the same again. Something might shift or evolve at any given moment in time. But in my mind, as long as I realize, something's gonna happen—and I don't know when it's gonna happen, where it's gonna happen, how it's gonna happen—I guess I'm alright with it. Then again, I've been doing this for 11 years now, and so it's kind of like the usual. In the beginning, it was a complete and total mind-F-word. Now I'm thinking to myself, "Okay, we're flying, and the plane got held up, so it landed at three in the morning instead of twelve in the midnight." However, in my head I'm thinking, "This is to be expected." I am aware that something like this has the potential to go wrong, but how do you intend to manage it if it does? It's happened before, it's gonna happen again, it’ll probably happen again in three weeks.

Therefore, I believe that the most important thing is to always be prepared for the unexpected. But when you really stop to think about it, the realization that I have become so accustomed to being uncomfortable that I actually thrive in certain situations kind of revs me up. When there is an excessive amount of the same thing, I tend to become complacent and comfortable. I don't ever like to feel that way.

Ramsey: Jimmy, do you disagree with that idea of vulnerability? Because that seems like vulnerability to me.

Butler: I suppose what I mean is I’m really open to whatever comes at me and secure in that. I do have a structure. I keep the same folks around me, day in and day out. You often hear individuals advise one another to maintain a close circle, but I truly am the embodiment of such advice. Therefore, regardless of the circumstances, I maintain the same level of energy. This is true whether I play well, whether I play poorly, whether I am sitting, or whether I am ill. Not everything is inherently good, and not everything is inherently harmful. We discuss about everything. It's an open door around here. If it’s 1pm, if it's 3am, it’s like, “Wake up, we need to talk.” And I think that's the part that that helps me, knowing that my people genuinely love me, my people really care for me, and they want what's best for me as I want what's best for them. Therefore, this is what puts me on this course of believing that everything is going to turn out okay. Everyone I see on a daily basis is concerned about my well-being and wants to make sure I'm doing fine.

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Brown: You have also brought up the significance of keeping a journal in maintaining that contact with your internal self. In what ways does this contribute to the process of achieving stability?

Butler: When I write in my journal, I feel like I can express myself more honestly than in any other medium. I have the impression that I can speak poorly of anyone and nobody will ever find out about it. And at this point, I actually type it into the computer so that I can lock it, because I have this thing where I do stuff, but then I always forget what I did. I've misplaced somewhere about five journals, and I know that whoever discovers them is going to despise Jimmy, because in my journals, I'll be discussing cash money and other financial matters. I believe that keeping a journal, which is just you talking to you, is the most effective way to express oneself. You're actually spewing everything out on a piece of paper. You have nothing to worry about in terms of other people passing judgment on you. And then you get to go back and think, “I was really feeling like this two days ago, man. I was responsible for that."

Zac Clark: One of the most important lessons I needed to learn was that I can't delegate my authority to other people. I learned this lesson after listening to Jimmy talk about that tight circle. I am unable to delegate my authority to those who are unfamiliar with my character. When I do it, that's when I'll feel like I'm on top of the world. I get to the point where I start to doubt myself, which is a difficult cycle to get out of. I have this irrational fear that I am a terrible person, despite the fact that I am well aware that this is not the case. My journey toward better mental health has, in a sense, been a dual one. Back then (about ten years ago), I was smoking crack, doing shots of dope, and bouncing around Philadelphia and Camden. I realize that I need to get sober, and as a result, I enroll in rehab and successfully complete the program. After being absent for four and a half months, I feel as though I have been reintroduced into the world. I keep reassuring myself, "If I just do this, I should feel better, right?" Or there's still something wrong with me. I had to get past that obstacle and figure out how to function properly in the outside world before I could move on. It's never as good as it seems and it's never as horrible as it seems. In every case, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. If I can get to the place where I embrace that, I'm gonna soar.

Then I start assisting folks. I work in addiction, recovery, and mental illness. I'm assisting people and I'm trying to be of service and I'm performing interventions. People are saying me, “You're such a hero,” and you're this and you're that. I started to feel like a phony, because if only they knew who I really felt. Being able to actually discuss that in an environment like this with other males has been essential for me because it doesn't mean I'm a bad person if I'm helping others and then I go home at night.

The final phase of this thing is 10 years into this new life in terms of sobriety and physical fitness and mental health and helping other people, I end up on this insane TV program, and we're in the middle of a pandemic. I went on this show and I left the globe for three month. Now, all of a sudden, I have all these eyes on me. I have folks coming out of the woodwork that I haven't talked to in 10, 15, or 20 years. I haven't heard from them in all that time. I started to get really prideful. Something along the lines of, "What do you want from me now that you didn't want anything from me before?"

why do you think men don't speak up about their struggles, mental health and abuse? what are your thoughts?

join us at 6pm as we discuss some of the issues affecting men and how we can navigate through them.

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— timothée (@TheNtilo) November 29, 2022

I've been keeping a notebook, meditating, and doing a lot of introspective thinking in order to figure out who I am as a man and identify the individuals that love me the most. It's all right to admit that I could use some assistance. When things are going well, I try to let the happy energy that I'm experiencing flow out into the world because, at the end of the day, I receive a lot of great feedback from other people.

Brown: When it comes to showing vulnerability, people do not look at Drew and I the same way that they look at and pay attention to everything that you two are doing. Instead, they are looking at you and paying attention to everything that you do. Are there any pressures that come along with your public figures status that make it more difficult to be upfront and honest about matters like this?

Jon Batiste: Learn about yourself and pay attention to the cues that your body is providing you. This is something that I strongly encourage to everybody and everyone who is reading this. There are things that occur within you, including ideas that you have and sensations that you have, that lead to locations that are not healthy for you. These things can be broken down into two categories: external and internal. They cause you to engage in actions that are detrimental to your health. The moment I realized that about myself was the turning point in my realization that "Okay, there's a separation here." There must be a clear division between my professional life and my personal life. My life is structured around what really matters most to me. I’m talking about family and friends and community. That allows you to not get caught up in the circus. It’s ravenous, and you can continually offer [the circus] something to present to the audience. But the end of the day, it's a performance. So you’ve got to know, whatever area of employment you’re in, what is it? Locate those items that are significant.
 

Richards: It is extremely amazing to me that advocacy for mental health has gotten so intertwined with the work that I do in so many different ways. The irony of the situation is that, as Zac pointed out, I'll say things and talk extremely openly about them, and then people will assume that I have it all worked out because I'm talking about it in public.

The fact of the matter is that I don't have a fucking clue about anything. Not a single thing. I just have the words to sort of disseminate or put forward my story, but it does not mean that I am better or that I am healed or that I do not suffer each and every single day.

The phrase "vulnerability" has recently become popular, and I believe there is a strong reason for this. But to tell you the truth, what I consider to be vulnerable is simply the act of being human. It's just like what Jimmy said: speaking whatever it is you need to say in the moment. That is what we mean when we talk about people being vulnerable. Simply presenting yourself as your most genuine self and speaking whatever the fuck you feel compelled to say are the only two things that are required. It has taken me forty years to actually settle into that sort of rhythm of just being myself, and it takes stuff like this where other men are coming together and talking about substance abuse, talking about having a fully erratic lifestyle in which they can't rely on one thing or the other, and finding some sort of peaceful path through that to make it possible for me to do so. It delves into the more sinister aspects of life, which many of us want to avoid discussing because we're expected to be tough and manly, and these things shouldn't affect us.

Brown: Cory, can you tell me about a time in your life when things changed?

Richards: A diagnosis of cancer was made for my father approximately a year and a half ago. It is highly likely that he will pass away before he reaches the age of 80, which, when I was 40, was a significant milestone. I pray I don't die when I'm 80. But at that point, I realized, "Oh my God, I'm already halfway through." What value does my life have if it ends at the same time as everyone else? What I've realized is that none of this is for anyone else but me. Of course, I'm not suggesting that you act in a self-centered manner. What I'm trying to express is that your life does not have to be for anybody else. You should try to live in a way that is the most genuine manifestation of who you are. Climbing and photography were just two examples of the many performative activities that I engaged in. I participated in it with the purpose of receiving some sort of validation since, for whatever reason, I did not believe that I was good enough. As a result, I spent the majority of my life catering to the needs of others, which ultimately caused me more harm than anything else. Nobody else has a right to [your life] but you. You are the target of this.

Ramsey: Jon, what are your thoughts? You needed to establish some distance from certain powerful thoughts in order to be successful in what you were doing. Could you elaborate a little bit more on that please?

Batiste: My very first panic attack was a watershed moment for me since I had no idea what was happening to me. I'm from a neighborhood in New Orleans where nobody talks about having panic attacks or going to therapy, and that's where I come from. Therefore, just the overall image of what was occurring to my body, not knowing what was happening, and having a great deal of activity going on. I had scheduled consecutive 14-hour and 15-hour workdays, never having taken a vacation and not believing in the concept of taking time off. When I was 17 years old, I made the move to New York. And from attending a conservatory to doing all the things I was doing after that—touring, writing for movies, playing music—just the whole idea of adrenaline and presenting yourself to people on stage while searching for validation. Looking for perfection. Striving to be the best you can be. Reading biographies wanting to be like the greats.

Then all of a sudden your body's like, “Hey, bro, you gotta chill, brother. Sit down.” And then your heart almost stops going to the ER as a 20-year-old. Also my lady, she was diagnosed with cancer at 21. She went through a five year battle and she's in remission now. But I was going to see her at that age. Performing for a cancer ward is a realization that I'm grateful even in the darkness of that to have had.

I guess you may look at anything as a gift and curse. There's definitely been that dichotomy [in my life] of experiencing things that are dark, but learning from them, and then having tools and coming up with ways to maintain myself and to protect and care for my people. Even if you come out on the other side of a difficult scenario having lost something, there is always something positive that you can take away from the experience. This is true even in the most difficult of circumstances.

There are strategies and mechanisms of how to build distance between what's beneficial for you and what's not. I’ve got to have 15 minutes where I just sit with a glass of water every day and breathe. We sat on the porch in the South. Now I just sit on the porch and take some deep breaths. I enjoy country music, I like jazz. Certain sorts of music put me in a place. Just whatever you’re in, there's a method that you may come out of it with something of great worth in your life.

Brown: How can you find joy in the face of some bad things that you've been through?

Batiste: I learned this from a few people. Having affirmations that are on loop in your thoughts, you can train yourself. It's kind of like working out a muscle, isn't it? So you train yourself to internalize certain truths about your existence. “I'm still here, I'm breathing. I can go out into the world.” I can do something with that alone. Simply the realization that I am still alive and that I am breathing is enough to fill me with joy at this point. You repeat that to yourself over and over, regardless of whether things are going well or not. Due of the fragile nature of humans, it is never imprinted. We have to keep drilling things in. That's what most religious rituals or spiritual practices are all about. You have to keep pounding it into their heads.

Until you've experienced [something painful], you won't truly understand what it is to be happy. And each of us will be in possession of something. If you haven't experienced it yet, you will soon. Therefore, the key to your happiness is only around the corner.

Batiste: Cory, Jimmy, and Zack, I am aware that you have all performed despite being in agony. What's your go-to to get to the other side when you are in agonizing pain and you can't turn back?

Butler: When I need motivation, I think about my Whys, or the reasons behind the things I do. First, my daughter is the source of my delight. I love the fact that I arrive in at 3 a.m. from the road and it's like she knows that I'm home and she wakes up. It’s the most fantastic feeling that I've ever felt in my life. So when I'm hurting, I just think I’ve got to do this for her. I’ve also got to do this for my boys around me on the everyday. They're like, “He did it, so I can do it.”

And then I believe the second most significant thing to me is nobody gives a fuck when you're hurting and you’ve got a job to complete. People still expect you to do the job. They expect you to win, they expect you to deliver, they expect you to accomplish everything. That was my turning point: Realizing people don't care. They don't. They don't care how you're feeling. When you find the folks who genuinely care, you will have found your tribe. By their very nature, humans are self-centered. But when you get the perfect bunch of individuals around that honestly, sincerely care about you, I think it's the most fantastic thing.

Clark: I try to appreciate the discomfort a little bit. It fuels you to a certain degree. I've lived enough time on this planet to recognize I'm going to get punched in the face. There's folks that haven't been punched in the face, or they're gonna get punched in the face. It’s how I respond to it.

Richards: In a physical setting, there's plenty of study that indicates when you're genuinely in physical pain—whether you're on the court or you're on a mountain—if you smile, what occurs in your body is completely different than if you scowl. So giving yourself some gratitude and giving the real fight itself some gratitude. I'm not saying I'm amazing at that when shit sucks. “Oh, thanks so much for this heaping pile of shit that is on my face right now.” That's not what I'm saying. But I will try.